2nd amendment

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2nd amendment

Post  gendoikari87 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:09 pm

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It is important to read this correctly, and realize the frame for which it was intended. The first part is a mission statement, and the second part clarifies the individuals right to bear arms. If it was meant that only the well regulated militia should be allowed to bear arms it would have been phrased thusly:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the militia to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

But it was not written that way, and for a reason. The founding fathers didn't start the war when they were taxed, they protested. They didn't start the war when the red army slew protesters in boston. They started the war when the british government came for their guns. The reason is simple: when you have gained no ground, and your oppressors seek to take away your option of last resort, you must use that last resort.

They also knew that a standing army was easily abused, and used for imperial goals, so they wanted a nation, whereby any ordinary citizen could be called up in defense of his homeland if the need arose. This is why they made it a right of the people. Not only in defense against the inevitable corruption of the government, but as a means to defend a nation without providing an imperialistic army. Of course certain things had to be kept by the government because the common man could not afford them. The goal of the militia in that sense in early colonial days was that of the infantryman. And that is what it should be today. What the common infantryman is issued should by all rights be legal to posses without further infringement on the masses.

Now you can make arguments for licensing to own, and especially background checks. But the benefits of reducing our military to a fraction of it's current size, ending imperialistic wars that kill thousands of innocent civilians and inflate our debt, a defensive army made up of the people which cannot be used to suppress our or any other people, far outweighs any minor mass shootings that may occur from time to time, regardless of if we have the 2nd amendment or not, regardless of the original intent of the founding fathers.
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Re: 2nd amendment

Post  comedian on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:04 am

I agree with your interpretation of the 2nd amendment, I disagree with the history of the reasons why the founders wanted a military based on a militia.
First, not all of the founders wanted a militia system. The more conservative faction, headed by Alexander hamilton, wanted a professional army and navy, similar to Great Britain's. Hamilton saw the militia as incapable of defending the nation if attacked by a global power ( i.e. the British ). Hamilton was prophetic- after his death the British Redcoats swept aside the inept militiamen of Maryland and seized the capital in 1813. The Minuteman concept was finally abandoned after the beginning of the American Civil War.
So, if militias are not particularly effective, why did the majority of the founders prefer it? Certainly the militia fullfilled a role in their revolutionary ideal of the citizen soldier. But the real reason was that it was cheap. Why outfit a hugely expensive army when the new nation could have the majority of its defense force arm itself? The new nation was broke as shit after the War Of Independence, and not particularly interested in building a new professional military. The militia could handle most of the problems with America's most common foe- the native tribes resisting American encroachment on their lands. The idea was if the British came back, the militias would hold the line long enough for the small professional army to make a decisive blow against the Redcoats.
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Re: 2nd amendment

Post  Progurt on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:22 am

I think that we're at the point now, technologically, where standing armies should be a moot point. We can defend our coastlines easily enough with a greatly-reduced Navy, patrol the borders with a greatly-reduced Army, and if another country really puts forth a concentrated invasion, we do have nukes. Keep a couple hundred of those on hand and you make the cost of invading us too great to be risked, same reason we haven't gone into North Korea.

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Re: 2nd amendment

Post  gendoikari87 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:02 pm

Progurt wrote:I think that we're at the point now, technologically, where standing armies should be a moot point. We can defend our coastlines easily enough with a greatly-reduced Navy, patrol the borders with a greatly-reduced Army, and if another country really puts forth a concentrated invasion, we do have nukes. Keep a couple hundred of those on hand and you make the cost of invading us too great to be risked, same reason we haven't gone into North Korea.
if you want to get real technical we don't need an army or navy anymore. if you tell the world: "our only method of defense is to nuke your ass off the face of the planet" no one will fuck you.

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Re: 2nd amendment

Post  lemur_ on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:08 pm

gendoikari87 wrote:if you want to get real technical we don't need an army or navy anymore. if you tell the world: "our only method of defense is to nuke your ass off the face of the planet" no one will fuck you.

Hmm... I can't help thinking that we have to have a way to respond to threats which is not of the nothing-or-nuclear-bombing type. Yes, I realize there are options before using force but what do you do when those options have failed? Nukes? Ever thought about the civilians that this is going to kill? I do not think so called "surgical strikes" are devoid of civilian casualties but nukes are indiscriminate by nature.

It is possible for a country to not act like an imperialist dick and still have means to defend oneself that are not all-or-nothing.
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Re: 2nd amendment

Post  Progurt on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:20 pm

I think our definition of defense has gotten pretty loose over the years.

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Re: 2nd amendment

Post  gendoikari87 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:26 pm

I don't know I think our need for defense has gone way down since the inception of this country. I mean even 9/11 could have been easily stopped if the president had taken it as a serious threat.

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Re: 2nd amendment

Post  comedian on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:44 pm

Progurt wrote:I think our definition of defense has gotten pretty loose over the years.

What, you don't think Grenada posed a serious threat to our freedom and the American way of life?
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Re: 2nd amendment

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