Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

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Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:52 pm


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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:58 pm

I need to watch this when I have a chance

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  comedian on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 am

Another triumph for " regulated" capitalism!
This is the main problem with the liberal democrat approach to capitalism: it depends on a child like faith in the willingness of the rich and the powerfull to regulate themselves. In other words the guys who control the state and the economy have to be willing to say, " Fuck it. Let's lose ourselves a shit- ton of money so we can beef up laws against financial risktaking. Let's take one in the shorts for America!"
" But what about FDR?", they wonder. Yeah what about him? He was looking at a revolutionary situation in the 1930s and decided the best way to put a halt to it was to use the state to intervene in the economy. Add to that the fact that in those days the American elite still believed that the patrician class still had a responsibility to lead their nation and make it strong.
Those days are gone, children. Today's capitalist is part of an international elite, with no more ties to the United States than he/ she does to Sri Lanka. And with the progressive movement in this country co- opted by the Democratic party there is absolutely no reason why the Democrats should make more than a few meaningless token reforms.
Don't the liberals get that? I keep hearing about " working within the party" to change the situation. Guess what? Without a popular working class opposition independent of the party, there is absolutely no fucking pressure on the Democrats to change a goddam thing!
Why is that so hard to figure out?
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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:48 am

Problem is you won't get a real working class opposition party without campaign finance reform. And you don't get campaign finance reform without campaign finance reform. A catch-22 which circles back around to us being "pretty darned fucked"

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:47 am

comedian wrote:Don't the liberals get that? I keep hearing about " working within the party" to change the situation. Guess what? Without a popular working class opposition independent of the party, there is absolutely no fucking pressure on the Democrats to change a goddam thing!
Why is that so hard to figure out?
Got me, I've never had any success getting the neutered centrist left to figure it out.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Fukshot on Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:57 am

Progurt wrote:
comedian wrote:Don't the liberals get that? I keep hearing about " working within the party" to change the situation. Guess what? Without a popular working class opposition independent of the party, there is absolutely no fucking pressure on the Democrats to change a goddam thing!
Why is that so hard to figure out?
Got me, I've never had any success getting the neutered centrist left to figure it out.

I think many do, but they don't see what other tools to use. I think, even among socialists, there isn't a clarity on what even the top three courses of action to argue between are.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:10 am

gendoikari87 wrote:
Incidentally, this should be precisely 0 surprise to anybody who did the simplest of acts, checking the donor lists for Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. I knew Dodd-Frank would be ineffective (and it's ineffectiveness was compounded with the help of the Republicans but it wouldn't have done a whole fucking lot regardless) just by looking at where Dodd and Frank get their money. And yet we're sold it like it was groundbreaking financial regulation.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:42 am

The simple fact of the matter is with the political environment we have have now we are back to begging our barons for change. It takes years upon years of protest to get anything done and even then when our barons give us what we desire it is only a method of placation to keep their own seats plastered in hallowed throne above us. Our democracy is a total joke, we've been split and divided to the point that even if we had money out of politics it wouldn't make much difference, and to top it all off, the wealthy robber barons have an entire class of brainwashed storm troopers to protect them. They've flooded the military and police with these gestapo wannabe's and now that they have them in place they don't even need to listen to the people like they did in the 1960's Occupy has had some minimal success but largely been ignored. Occupy served it's purpose but it's time to move on to mass strikes. Only we aren't organized enough to make that work, with at a minimum a third of the nation brainwashed into being their undivided protectors. We're pressed on all sides by the forces of those that corrupt the system, backed into a corner.

Voting won't work, there is too much money and too many fools in the way. Protests won't work because we have no more leverage. Strikes won't work because there's wingnut scabs to fill the gaps that the few who have the courage to strike will leave. Constitutional convention won't work because it relies on state governments being pressured into proposing it, and while state governments aren't nearly as corrupt as the federal government they are still a tough nut to crack. Armed revolt won't work because it just won't ever fucking happen until it's too late and we're back in the fucking stone age.

So of all of these pressuring state governments for a constitutional convention seems to be the best and most prudent course of action. Wolf-pac itself represents the single greatest threat to the robber baron aristocracy we've seen yet because state politicians are cheap and if we work together the proletariat can by the requisite number of states to convene the convention. However, should that fail, yes, we are "pretty fucked".

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:46 pm

I think our best shot is to make people see how broken the system is, and then they'll get their own sense of outrage over their inability to make change happen.

This can lead to constitutional conventions, peaceful revolution, general strikes, and so on. Nobody will fight if they don't see a problem.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:50 pm

Progurt wrote:I think our best shot is to make people see how broken the system is, and then they'll get their own sense of outrage over their inability to make change happen.
Problem. Even if they're outraged, what can they do? Even if every citizen was totally outraged at both the dems and the republicans. what can be done? I mean, rocky is on all of what? three state ballots? How many even know of him? We're still stuck with the two party system. We as the people, still have no leverage.

The problem with conventions is they are done at the request of the states. We don't have any method of forcing our states to call for it. And our state politicians are still required to play by the same monied rules. Peaceful revolutions have the same problem. No teeth. The rich are holding all the cards, and I mean all the cards.... and wearing a bullet proof vest.

The way we win is by buying more politicans than they do. Or by simply buying their corporations.


Last edited by gendoikari87 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:53 pm

gendoikari87 wrote:
Progurt wrote:I think our best shot is to make people see how broken the system is, and then they'll get their own sense of outrage over their inability to make change happen.
Problem. Even if they're outraged, what can they do? Even if every citizen was totally outraged at both the dems and the republicans. what can be done? I mean, rocky is on all of what? three state ballots? How many even know of him? We're still stuck with the two party system. We as the people, still have no leverage.
You need to read Anarcho-Syndicalism Theory and Practice, he talks about how political action is ultimately futile anyway, and describes the other ways efforts can be directed.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:57 pm

what other methods?

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:05 pm

Start of Chapter 5 has a list;
Direct Action versus Parliamentarism; The strike and its meaning for the workers; The Sympathetic Strike; The General Strike; The Boycott; Sabotage by the workers; The social strike as a means of social protection; Antimilitarism.
full pdf here, go down to Chapter 5 to save some time

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  comedian on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:46 pm

The Occupy Movement, as flawed as it was, was a good beginning.
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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:46 pm

Progurt wrote:Start of Chapter 5 has a list;
Direct Action versus Parliamentarism; The strike and its meaning for the workers; The Sympathetic Strike; The General Strike; The Boycott; Sabotage by the workers; The social strike as a means of social protection; Antimilitarism.
full pdf here, go down to Chapter 5 to save some time
This is one amazing fucking book I have not read anything this engauging since Fahrenheit 451

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:50 pm

Just wait till you get into Chalmers Johnson and his in depth and well-researched books on the decline and impending collapse of the American Empire

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  comedian on Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:32 pm

Progurt wrote:Just wait till you get into Chalmers Johnson and his in depth and well-researched books on the decline and impending collapse of the American Empire
He did a couple of video interviews as well.
I think netflix has them.
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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Fukshot on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:54 pm

comedian wrote:The Occupy Movement, as flawed as it was, was a good beginning.

Very true. Too bad agent provocateurs and people who might as well have been managed to break the momentum of support. I can't blame people for backing away. It was pretty disheartening to have tens of thousands shut down the port of Oakland and then go home and all that's on the news is some brat playing hero waving the black flag in front of a burning dumpster.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:11 am

Fukshot wrote:
comedian wrote:The Occupy Movement, as flawed as it was, was a good beginning.

Very true. Too bad agent provocateurs and people who might as well have been managed to break the momentum of support. I can't blame people for backing away. It was pretty disheartening to have tens of thousands shut down the port of Oakland and then go home and all that's on the news is some brat playing hero waving the black flag in front of a burning dumpster.
When the bourgeois control the media...

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Fukshot on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:28 am

gendoikari87 wrote:When the bourgeois control the media...

That certainly explains the lack of coverage, especially early on. I agree, but making it easy for them keeps the veil up for many people. If there had been little coverage and there hadn't been a distraction, there would have been tens of thousands talking to their friends about how transparently biased the reporting was. As it was, it just made most of those thousands of people feel that their efforts were for nothing and they didn't tell their friends all about it because they were embarrassed. I can think of 20 people I know personally who responded pretty much that way.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:25 am

Problem is, you will never find a movement composed of 100% perfect people. And the ones looking to discredit that movement will focus on that 1-2% or even .5% or even less. Look at how conservatives have decided all gay rights advocates are vandals because somebody spraypainted a restaurant, while disavowing and ignoring the recent torture and attempted murder of homosexuals by conservatives. And the media goes along with this.

The media will cheerfully and selectively shape public perception of any movement that threatens oligarchical power. And the majority of Americans have been conditioned to uncritically take a "balanced" position arbitrarily formed by trying to place oneself in the midpoint between any two positions. Leading to opinions being expressed like "Well, the wealthy don't pay their fair share, but protests inconvenience people and annoy regular working people so they're not the way to go". From there, the public can be redirected into the same old ineffective electoral politics, and stay ignorant of their own capabilities for change.

Socialists were not born yesterday. They know how to read capitalist newspapers; and to believe exactly the opposite of what they read.
Why should a Socialist be discouraged on the eve of the greatest triumph in all the history of the Socialist movement? It is true that these are anxious, trying days for us all — testing days for the women and men who are upholding the banner of labor in the struggle of the working class of all the world against the exploiters of all the world; a time in which the weak and cowardly will falter and fail and desert. They lack the fiber to endure the revolutionary test; they fall away; they disappear as if they had never been. On the other hand, they who are animated by the unconquerable spirit of the social revolution; they who have the moral courage to stand erect and assert their convictions; stand by them; fight for them; go to jail or to hell for them, if need be — they are writing their names, in this crucial hour — they are writing their names in faceless letters in the history of mankind.
-Eugene V. Debs, Canton anti-war speech

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Fukshot on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:02 am

So you're saying that protest movements like Occupy are doomed to be ineffectual at gaining momentum until they have already gained momentum?

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  gendoikari87 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:27 am

if you want to convince someone or a group to do something (say campaign finance reform, Financial sector regulation, labor laws, ect, ect, ect), the party seeking action must possess leverage. In times past that was our vote, if our politicians didn't listen to us, they were voted out. Today the financial sector holds the leverage over our politicians and now basically controls them. If we are to see any reform or any change at all, we must ask ourselves what leverage do we have. Our votes are no longer leverage enough, we know this, this is why we protest. However, in our protests what leverage do we have over the politicians or the bankers?

This question of leverage is the one we should be tackling. How do we get effective leverage, and how do we use it, since voting is no longer leverage enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leverage_(negotiation)

Normative, Positive, Negative, and Buyer leverage are what we have to work with. Of these normative won't work with psychopaths, and the lower classes don't have the type of buyer leverage that the upper class does and uses flawlessly. So what we have to work with are the various examples of Positive, and negative.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  Progurt on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:16 am

Fukshot wrote:So you're saying that protest movements like Occupy are doomed to be ineffectual at gaining momentum until they have already gained momentum?
I'm not, I'm saying that it's everyone's individual responsibility to be extremely critical of the "official" media accounts of any popular movements, and we have to defend the movements against people looking for any excuse to discredit the movement since discrediting means they don't have to take a stand.

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Re: Top Insiders: yeah, we're fucked

Post  lemur_ on Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:47 am

Progurt wrote:
Fukshot wrote:So you're saying that protest movements like Occupy are doomed to be ineffectual at gaining momentum until they have already gained momentum?
I'm not, I'm saying that it's everyone's individual responsibility to be extremely critical of the "official" media accounts of any popular movements, and we have to defend the movements against people looking for any excuse to discredit the movement since discrediting means they don't have to take a stand.

Or that they don't have to examine the stand they already have, no matter how uninformed or incoherent this stand is.

This strategy also works on a personal level. When G&G insinuated that Gendo's criticism of Obama was due to racism, this is exactly what she was doing.
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